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What has happened to the English teams in the CL?

Discussion in 'UEFA and Europe' started by Beticious, Nov 24, 2011.

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  1. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

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    While England has produced some most excellent players, I think we all can agree that the generation reaching its peak now is a couple of steps below than the generation before it.
     


  2. RobTheFool

    RobTheFool Member

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    I think that is questionable.

    Of course say 5 years ago we had the likes of Beckham, Joe Cole, Hargreaves, Gerrard, Lampard, Rio, Terry, King, Sol Campbell, Ashley Cole, Neville, Owen and Rooney who were all in their peaks, that is quite a good bunch of players.

    At the moment, we have Rooney out of that group who is still in his prime or better. Ashley Cole and Gerrard are still at a high level, but not quite as high as they were. Terry and Lampard are still pretty solid players but are dropping off.


    I think that right now England is in a transition period, the group we have now is really a mix of the older generation with a few younger ones mixed in, that's why I would say it's questionable, because we don't really have a new generation embedded in yet. Partly that's because the young players that came through from 2007-2010 were not that great, but since then we have had some good young players who have a more continental style, and more waiting to come in.

    I think that our upcoming players have the ability to be better than the previous generation. Hart, Butland, Smalling, Walker, Richards, Wilshere, Cleverley, Morrison, Mceachran, Barkley, Rodwell, Adam Johnson, Sturridge, Welbeck and more that I can't think of at the moment fill me with more hope than the likes of Downing and Andy Carroll do..
     
  3. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

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    Your post is interesting, but I disagree a little with this. while a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 has become more prevelant in recent years, largely with the emergence of wing-forwards and the death of the box-to-box midfielder in a favour of role-players, I don't think Barca are actually revolutionary. I feel that they play a very solid possession and pressing game and happen to have the optimum players for that system at exactly the right time.

    Indeed, a side as gifted as this Barcelona team is something I'd argue is difficult to plan. While Messi's mere talent allows him to transition in a role that is becoming known as the false #9, I believe that just like Xavi's capacity for running a midfield, this is simply a style of play that has materialised organically from his amazing skill-set.

    As has been pointed out already - Man Utd have inexplicably failed to bring in ready-made replacements for outgoing players. As I may also have said, my theory now is that Ferguson was banking on what we saw Tom Cleverly doing at the beginning of the season as the longterm answer, so wasn't prepared to splash money on big continental names (which if you view United's history, Fergie has rarely done anyway - he spends big on domestic talent, while his foreign imports have tended to be up-and-comers).

    I already listed some of the many injuries United have had this season, as well as the fact that the team is transitioning itself.

    Nobody said City was a bad team, but they're new to both competing in Europe and managing both that and a title push. They've also had personnel issues of their own. How many other teams could lose Yaya Toure and Tevez for extended periods and compete on multiple fronts?

    Hart, Richards, Lescott, Kompany, Milner, Barry and De Jong are experienced in Europe?


    Did you see their Champions League group?
     
  4. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

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    Yeah I did. I was talking about their EL exit, and comparing them to Hannover 96.
     


  5. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

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    I stand by what I said. Many of their players are inexperienced in Europe. They were complacent. Despite this they still almost came back.

    If you're saying that what you saw from City in those two games was the team at it's best and that they'll never play better than that, then I have to say you're being disingenuous.

    English teams have been poor this season. However, if it wasn't for the fact that they hadn't been poor in recent seasons, this thread wouldn't exist.

    As much as I personally don't want it to happen, we'll see better from Manchester City next term.
     
  6. lost

    lost Member

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    not if mancini is there we wont. they are going to collapse in the league between now and the united match, but i dont know if the owners are the type to go for blood. they have been shit, but there have also been clear signs of improvement from recent years, and the owners may stick with him, which would mean another year of flopping in europe.
     
  7. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

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    I did not even watch highlights of the game, I am basically going by reputation. Of course it is entirely possible for ManCity to go out, and inexperience is a convenient excuse, and of course Valencia is a team that is stronger than Liège or Bruges, so comparing 96 with ManCity is not entirely fair, and it comes down to bad luck from seeding.

    Of course ManCity will be able to build on this experience and is likely going to do better than this year, unlike Hannover, this is probably the most I can expect for the next few years. It is nevertheless okay to criticize both Manchester's for their showing, nominally both of them are stronger than the 8 remaining teams of the EL, and there is at least one other team that has as small experience in Europe as ManCity :) Hannover 96).

    In the end I think the showing of the English teams this year is great for European football, just as I think it would be great for football if both Barca and Real would not make it to the CL final, since dominance over years makes football rather boring (unless it is your own team that is dominating). I don't think this is a large trent, and until now every era of dominance has ended. It remains to be seen whether we can say that the EPL dominance of the last years is over now or not.

    Either way, it was a poor showing by both Manchesters in the end, experience or not.
     
  8. evangel

    evangel Member+

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    We still can't be entirely sure of that. The group a team ends up in depends on their coefficient ranking. This is the current ranking:

    http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2012.html

    Manchester City is ranked 28. Teams are placed in pots of 8 before creating the groups, so even if some of the teams above them don't qualify to the group stages next year, Man City will be in Pot 3 at best.

    That means they could end up in a group with Real Madrid and Milan, and even Borussia Dortmund or Juventus(if Milan isn't there) could end up as the 4th team in there, since they have low coefficients.
     
  9. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

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    Interesting take. A team is stronger than the team that eliminated it over two legs in European competition. I must say that's a very different and... refreshing(?) view.
     
  10. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

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    Do you want to say that last year's Schalke was a better team than last year's Inter? Not for the two matches, but over the whole season.
     
  11. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

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    Absolutely.

    I was stunned by the level of complacency show by United in the Group stages.

    It's also nice when competitions are more competitive.

    Having said that, while there are things I dislike about the current Barcelona team (mainly their public complaints when a team has success against them by playing defensively), they are among the greatest sides I've ever personally seen, so I can't begrudge them some dominance.
     
  12. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

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    Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying Barcelona does not deserve the title (from what I have seen so far they absolutely do), but I think their dominance makes football predictable, which makes it less exciting to watch. At least for me personally.
     
  13. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator Staff Member

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    Great post :)

    There have been two revolutions since 2004, but rather than tactical revolutions - they are process/design revolutions.

    In 2004/5 Jose pioneered his 'aggressive transitional' system as a process management innovation in the EPL.

    Ironically and ignorantly criticized for lack of creativity his transitional system was essentially a management innovation that sought superiority at all times within key game transactions. Rather than focus on creative play, the players were drilled to always seek certain optimised transactions.

    This highly organized approach proved more efficient than the classic 'playmaker' approach and devastated the less organized EPL sides.

    While not always effective in Europe, the approach was copied wholesale, particularly by Man Utd and peaked at the Moscow final.

    Barca is essentially a process design revolution - seen as long ago as 2004 in the world of Rugby.

    Transitional systems are basically dumb systems. They are highly efficient but the parts are in effect stupid. The players tend to be functional. Lampard is a great example - a player who performs to an elite level within the system, but otherwise looks lost.

    Barca is a specific solution to the transitional systems, for teams that favour creative possession based football.

    Barca answers the question of what happens if you take the parts and make them intelligent again. Then place them within a system and tell them to solve the problems presented amongst themselves in real time.

    The thing that makes Barca different to the weaker sauce of previous creative generations is the system constraints.

    You don't say 'Dino/Deco - open up the defence with a moment of genius'

    You say - open up the defence but you have this tool box of known solutions.

    If you do not see the solution, then continue to move the pieces around the field until a known solution appears. This lessens the risk of getting hit on the transition.

    Also very impt (from rugby) is that as all the players seek a familiar pattern, the opportunity may appear while the wrong player has the ball.

    For this reason the roles within the team have to be devolved so that the process of playmaking can be assumed by anyone at the key moment.

    Its this aspect that makes Barca so hard to stop from a tactical perspective.

    They have intelligent drones operating within an extremely efficient system - a complete system design that would take many years to copy.



    Interestingly in Rugby, within about 3-4 years, everyone had retooled to 'smart drones' from the transitional approach.

    I'll be interested to see what comes out of Italy, and indeed germany.

    The German National team is coming close to the 'smart drone' approach in my view - but their system is hybrid as they emphasize the transition and speed of attack.

    Jose himself seems to look in a similar direction - yet head to head is still forced to be tactically regressive.
     
  14. thepremierleague

    thepremierleague Member

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    Well the 5th best team in England has done pretty well, if a little turbulant.

    So even when The EPL is having a "Bad" season in Europe, there is still a team
    into the latter stages once again.

    Premier League teams have probably been complacent this year and Europe has got stronger. There are also a lot of teams rebuilding,
     
  15. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

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    Fascinating stuff.

    Completely agree about Chelsea and Lampard in particular. When he was still in his prime, I once argued with a friend who was shocked at my claim that Gerrard and Lampard didn't have the tactical awareness to truly make the most of each other.

    Their technical capabilities and style of play at club level should have made them playing behind a forward, with a holding midfielder behind, a dynamic attacking system. When that was tried however, they routinely failed to coexist. Both thrive as the CAM with midfield components placed largely to accommodate their preferred style of play and abilities.

    How anybody ever thought those two in the middle of a 4-4-2 would make the most of their abilities is beyond me.
     
  16. RobTheFool

    RobTheFool Member

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    It's a shame it was tried so many times for England as well.. Even pushing Gerrard out to the left just to accommodate him, and Scholes as well circa 2004.

    It's a shame, because a midfield with Scholes, Gerrard/Lampard, and Hargreaves when they were in their prime would have been among the best.
     
  17. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

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    It's depressing when you think about it.

    LOL - the way Redknapp's been talking, we'll probably see that line-up!

    Back on topic... as England still has a team in Europe and Serie A doesn't, should this also be deemed a disastrous European season for Italian clubs?
     
  18. leg_breaker

    leg_breaker Member

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    That's only because Milan had to play Barca a round earlier than Chelsea.
     
  19. evangel

    evangel Member+

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    As far as the Champions League is concerned it will likely be a disastrous season for anyone not named Real Madrid or Barcelona.

    Though I'll praise APOEL for giving an air of freshness to predictable affairs.
     
  20. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

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    I'd say Benfica and Basel also leave the competition with some credit, while for a club of their stature, APOEL can only be described as a success.

    I'd also argue that Chelsea and Bayern, in reaching the semis, have already met expectations and should either get past the Spanish giants, they'll also leave with some credit. Though a semi-final exit, regardless of the performance or scoreline, would hurt Bayern more than the aging, transitional Chelsea.
     
  21. thepremierleague

    thepremierleague Member

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    Italian teams have still done no better than English teams this year, and in pure numbers it's statistically worse.

    You could use that argument about any stage of a competition. "Only because so and so had to play so and so earlier"
     
  22. canzano55

    canzano55 Member

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    I think even the most biased EPL fans who are hell bent on smearing Italian football would call that harsh.

    Napoli choked against a very seasoned Chelsea performance that came from nowhere.

    Inter was expected to lose.

    Milan lost to Barca on some raw officiating.

    Next year I don't see it getting much better for EPL clubs but I like how Man U have rebounded, they're making some real intelligent investments. Arsenal will be Arsenal, they'll win their group again like they always do but because of a lack of squad rotation they'll sink. Tottenham won't do anything. Man City is overrated.

    As bad as Italian clubs are, Milan has a two year window to win it. even when Milan plays like shit they're still one of the best defensive teams in the world when they want to be.
     
  23. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

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    So when two English teams got dumped out at the group stage this thread appears, full of Serie A faithful mocking and declaring that their league is now superior.

    Here we stand months later and there are no Italian teams left in either cup and one English.

    Instead of putting your hands up and saying "yup, wasn't so good for us in the the end either", we get a bunch of excuses.

    You say that Napoli choked against Chelsea, as if it somewhat negates the result. What did Arsenal do against Milan then? Because Arsenal almost came back against "the best defence in the world whan it wants to be". Yet you see Milan having a two year window and Arsenal doing nothing.

    Milan are excused by another poster because they drew Barca (with the usual debatable claims about officiating) yet Man City getting drawn into the hardest group I've ever seen, get's them no consideration.

    United have no excuses. They were complacent about their group and schooled by Bilbao. They've got some good young players though and while I believe they need to finally strengthen that midfield, that squad as it is will improve.

    In all honesty, this thread has generally been a tongue-in-cheek tit for tat for me. Nobody can say England in general gave a good account of itself. Spain however, has been excellent. I don't see how any fan of Italian football however, can say their clubs showed well.
     
  24. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Member+

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    LOL no they didn't. Their 2nd PK in Spain was bs but made up for Puyol being held for 5 seconds in the box from a non-given penalty back in Italy. Barcelona was just better and deservedly went through. They lost because they were not good enough.
     
  25. BocaFan

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    Well, I think you can expect to see Man City in the CL knockout stage next year. It's their low seed that really hurt them this time (and lack of experience, maybe).

    Spurs obviously won't do much just like last year when they beat both Inter and AC Milan. :D

    Next season it's going to be tough for Italy to send the usual 3 teams into the CL knockstage. Milan will be a top seed, but Juve will likely be in pot #3 for the group-stage draw. The other Italian representative might not even be seeded in the qualifying round unless Roma make a late season surge in league and finish 3rd.

    Basically its shaping-up for Juve needing to get through a tough group just for Italy to have more than 1 team get past the group-stage. I guess things can change quickly in a couple of months.
     
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