Why aren´t french teams more powerful financially?

Discussion in 'France' started by maniak, Jul 2, 2011.

  1. maniak

    maniak Member

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    I´m no expert in french economy, but I think that France has an economy at least as powerful as the british and italian and superior to the spanish, so why can´t the top french clubs compete financially with the top clubs from these countries?


  2. aloisius

    aloisius Member

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    mostly because football isn't as popular in france as in the rest of europe.
  3. NicolasN.

    NicolasN. Member

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    Saying that football is not popular in France is wrong. There are millions of medias talking about football in France. If football success was a matter of popularity, Marseille would be one of the best clubs in Europe which they aren't. The truth is that bosman did hurt a lot some leagues and the globalisation of football mediatisation accentuated it. The gap between some of these leagues and the rest is getting bigger. IMO, if there weren't money from Qatar coming in L1, French football would have crashed.

    As for financial problems, there is an organism called DNCG that is that examinates the finances of clubs in France. The fiscality is also a problem compared of some other nations and the clubs had a fiscal advantage called "DIC" (collective image rights) that was suppressed like 1 year after the financial crisis. It didn't help the clubs.
  4. aloisius

    aloisius Member

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    if football was as popular in france as it is in the rest of europe, bosman would have only worked in it's favour. france is the second biggest european economy and the market is big enough to support a stronger league which would attract players from the rest of europe and the world, and not lose its stars.

    Marseille really aren't anything special in europe when it comes to popularity. there are lots of clubs in europe who are more or equally popular. and they are the 14. richest club in europe.

    maybe the interest in football isn't that significantly different from the rest of europe in some parts of the country, but it is drastically lower in paris, and that makes a huge difference. paris metro area population is 12 milion, 20% of france lives there, and they only have one top level club that draws 30 000 fans. in any other country, an urban area of that size and economic strength would have at least 3-4 big and rich clubs with 50 000+ average crowds. if that was the case with paris, the french laegue would be significantly stronger.


  5. NicolasN.

    NicolasN. Member

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    Of course not. Bosman can't benefit a league where you are controlled and can't create as much debts as other clubs and where the fiscality is thougher for the clubs. Bosman is not a reflect of popularity, it benefits clubs who have the money thus clubs who have an advantageous fiscality, can have huge debts.

    The relationship between Marseille and l'OM is very special. Can't see how it's possible to deny it.
  6. aloisius

    aloisius Member

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    debt is not the reason the french clubs aren't more competitive on the european stage.
    that is is a delusion that some fans seem to comfort themselves with.

    clubs in other countries simply generate higher revenues because they have higher attendance, get more tv money, get more money from sponsors, sell more merchandise etc. all of that is based on a higher level of interest in football in those countries.


    clubs that take on debt have to pay it back. those that overstretch and take on to much debt end up having to severely cut down on spending. for those that have enough revenue to service their loans, debts aren't a problem. and even if taking on debt was banned for every football club in europe, the situation wouldn't change for french clubs, because lyon, the french club with the highest revenues, is only 12. on that list in europe.

    what exactly is special about Marseille that you think doesn't exist in other places? you think man united, barcelona, bayern etc aren't very popular in their cities and regions?
  7. SportBoy333

    SportBoy333 Member+

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    High taxes and DNCG are the main reasons why. What someone said about Paris above I'd put as the 3rd main reason.
  8. SportBoy333

    SportBoy333 Member+

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    I'll agree with that to an extent but I dont think it has to do with a higher level of interest. I was commenting how in another thread how French teams dont sign players to sell jerseys like they do in other places and that's a major hit in the selling merchandise dept. isn't it ? French teams have done a bad job of selling their brand outside of their country and havent put much effort into it it seems.

    Ligue 1's attendence is really on par with Serie A's if you look at it and with new stadiums coming attendence will not get smaller it will only get bigger.

    I dont know about tv money and sponorship money but I'm guessing if France had better quality of players on the teams then the money and interest level would go up.



    They have to pay it back you say ? The top clubs with a few exceptions are still deep in debt and when exactly are they gonna have it all paid back ? 2050 maybe ?


    Those clubs you mentioned are "global brands" who have tons of plastic fans all over the world while Marseille's popularity outside of France can't really compare to that. I'm sure those clubs you mentioned are popular in their respective cities/regions but they are so far beyond that I cant even think of them as "local clubs" anymore. So Marseille are more special because they are still more of a "local club."
  9. aloisius

    aloisius Member

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    players selling jerseys is a very minor contributor to club's finances. david bechkam being the only exception. the quality of players is the consequence of higher levels of interest and the revenue they create on that basis. the clubs in spain, england, italy and germany didn't start out by signing foreign stars out of thin air. they could do that because they had strong revenues based on strong interest in their leagues when they were still 90% or more domestic. that made it possible to sign the best foreign players as well.

    italy still has higher atendanace , by a fair margin, 24 000 to 19 000.

    the general level of intrest and revenue based on that is what brings in the top players, not the other way around.

    they pay it back and take on new loans. that's how buisness works. if they can service the debt from their revenues, there's no problem. banks loan them money, they pay it back with intrest and take out new loans. clubs that spend beyond their means suffer because of that. there have been numouros clubs which overspent and then had to dramaticly cut down on spending and sell their best players.



    they still have their local fans, despite being also global clubs. but even if we exclude the "global clubs", you still have the likes of benfica, celtic, rangers, schalke, dortmund, feyenord, napoli, roma, fenerbachce, hajduk, red star etc...
    how are marseille different to these clubs?


    the difference in taxes isn't really that big to make a difference, if there is any these days. it doesn't stop marseille and lyon from competing with clubs of similar revenues, i.e. hamburg, roma, atletico, totenham, schalke.

    the botom line, as i see it is this: if parisiens were interested in football to a similar extent as the northern italians, for example, are, there would be 3-4 clubs in paris similar in strenght to inter, ac milan and juventus, the french league would be much stronger which would then also make lyon and marseille richer than they are as they would be a part of stronger league and would atract more fans, more sponsors and get more money for tv rights.
  10. SportBoy333

    SportBoy333 Member+

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    Yes I can't argue with that there. I think there is room for 1 more Paris area Ligue 1 team that can be successful.
  11. lefutur

    lefutur Member

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    I get the impression that Parisians think football is for the lower-middle class and poor people. Except when the World Cup came to France and '98 and then the suits all went to the Stade de France and the real fans got shut out.
  12. Guarda-Redes

    Guarda-Redes Member

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    There probably is, problem is they all suck and can't even make it to Ligue 1.
  13. SportBoy333

    SportBoy333 Member+

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  14. StarrMatthieu

    StarrMatthieu Member

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    http://www.sport.fr/football/champi...et-pape-diouf-bientot-au-paris-fc-224550.shtm
    http://www.francefootball.fr/#!/news/2011/07/01/141822_luc-besson-a-envie-de-venir-au-paris-fc.html
    Luc Besson a envie de venir au Paris FC


    [​IMG] Si le Paris Saint-Germain vient d'être racheté par un fonds d'investissement du Qatar, le Paris FC pourrait également voir de nouveaux investisseurs arriver. Selon le quotidien Le Parisien, le cinéaste et réalisateur Luc Besson souhaiterait investir sérieusement dans le club de National.

    Il avait d'ailleurs rendez-vous, jeudi après-midi, avec les deux présidents du club, Guy Cottret (SASP) et Pierre Ferracci (association), mais l'entretien a été annulé au dernier moment. Malgré cela, rien n'est remis en cause et le trio devrait pouvoir se retrouver prochainement.

    Pour l'accompagner, Besson compte sur son ami journaliste Yassine Belattar, avec qui il travaille sur le dossier «depuis plusieurs mois». Déjà proche de s'engager l'année dernière, Pape Diouf est également dans les petits papiers du club francilien. (Photo Presse-Sports)
  15. SportBoy333

    SportBoy333 Member+

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    I would rather see Red Star be the 2nd Paris Ligue 1 team but Paris FC are closer to making it and they are PSG's true rivals because they both spilt off from each other. If PSG, PFC, Red Star, and Racing Paris were all in Ligue 1 at the same time, I think I would die from excitement. I dont care about teams like Creitel, Alfortville, ESSG, Villemobile, etc. because they have no potential to be bigger than what they are now.
  16. maniak

    maniak Member

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    I agree with of what aloisius wrote, but aren´t the french and german situations similar? However Bayern seems to escape this logic. Is that due to their fanbase alone?
  17. sl7vk

    sl7vk Member

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    France is fine where it is at. Decent attendance, good tv deals, decent support.....

    It will never be England Spain or Germany.... and thank god it will never be Italy.

    France has a lot more diverse sports fan base than most Euro countries. Sailing, cycling, handball for pete's sake.... Not to mention all the crap that goes on... and quite frankly that is healthy.

    Spain is on the brink of collapse, and only 2 teams can win each year. Things are much better in England where 4 teams can win, and in Italy where... 3 can win?

    If that is success than no thanks.
  18. SportBoy333

    SportBoy333 Member+

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    All I know is that Germany has a lot more large cities and more big markets. Aside from Gay Paree which isnt a football town, there really isnt much else. I look at cities like Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt, Cologne, Dortmund, Stuttgart, Dussledorf, Hamburg, not to mention the Ruhr region and France cant match that as the cities/markets are smaller. We have Marseille and Lyon who are decent sized but after that we have Toulouse as the 4th largest French city which is a rugby town, Nice which has a high school type of stadium, Strasbourg who are in the 3rd-4th divsion, Nantes, Bordeaux, not as big as you think.
  19. SportBoy333

    SportBoy333 Member+

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    Maybe but there's still problems at the lower divisions. Cities are losing their clubs. Guengnon, Grenoble, Strasbourg.
  20. sl7vk

    sl7vk Member

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    There are problems everywhere. We are in danger of defaulting on our freaking debt for pete's sake.

    I like League 1... if you don't like then don't follow it.

    Follow Barca versus Real or Man U versus Chelsea or Inter versus AC.... Oh wait, I meant the epl, primera league and serie a.
  21. guignol

    guignol Moderator Staff Member

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    +1

    ditto.
  22. SportBoy333

    SportBoy333 Member+

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    I read that the new Grenoble could keep its old name. I think they are letting the fans vote on it. They've changed their name a lot over the years so its not a big deal I think. Strasbourg needs to keep its old name because its important not to lose over 100 years of history as RC Strasbourg. A new club with a new name would be bad.
  23. SportBoy333

    SportBoy333 Member+

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    PSG is showing their financial power now arent they.:) Now all we need is for Red Star 93 and Paris FC to come up from the National to Ligue 1 and get taken over by foreign billionaires and we will really be rolling. Paris is the only French city that's attractive to foriegners.
  24. Kampfschwein

    Kampfschwein Member

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    I lived in France and I'd say many segments of society simply wouldn't go anywhere near club football.

    Perhaps the situation is comparable to England's before the creation of the EPL. The days in which the English middle-class wasn't particularly interested in football.
  25. leg_breaker

    leg_breaker Member

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    They're still not. Most of the support is still working class, maybe newly-made middle classes who carry on watching football. There are middle-class areas of the country where people might go to Twickenham once a year but would never go to a football match.

    I think the main success of the EPL was getting working class fans to buy tickets with credit cards and subscribe to Sky Sports even if they were broke.

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