World Cup Individual Advanced Stats

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by schwuppe, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Thanks. Rivera doesn't do as well with that stat because he wasn't playing for the whole of the games.
    Cruyff's rate is great as we might have known/expected. Careca's is notable I think in 1986, and Giannini's that I noticed already.


  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Think he was the other one I spotted - he does have a ratio of a chance created in less than 20 mins (just over 18 mins). Ironically, he ended the World Cup being out-jumped by Letchkov at the far post! I remember he assisted Klinsmann's flick and volley goal with a low cross from the right, and he got 5 assists in total so statistically rivals Cruyff for creativity though not in terms of gameplay I would suggest.
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    What is the best way to do those own calculations without ending up with too much columns?

    Surprise to see Hassler so high. Same with Xavi, many thought he was below his level.

    Bergkamp was heavily injured at 1998WC. At 1994WC he had some issues too but is nevertheless among the better chance creators of that World Cup. The four players above him played more minutes:
    Hassler: one chance every 18 minutes
    Bebeto and Brolin: one chance every 36 minutes
    Hagi: one chance every 34 minutes
    Bergkamp: one chance every 34 minutes

    Bergkamp actually played after Hassler and Klinsmann the least amount of minutes of all WC1994 names included in the file.
  4. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Don't edit the base date and make the calculations in a second sheet.

    Goaltenders coming soon.


  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Yes, I remember he'd missed the end of the season in England but still was Player of the Year for 97/98. I think he still played well in '98, though maybe with great moments rather than consistent excellence (defintely the case vs Argentina; maybe South Korea game was his best overall but my memory is hazy).
    That's a good ratio for chances created in '94 then when he played as more of a main striker IIRC - matching very good performers like Romanian star Hagi (also slightly puzzled that Castrol would have him below the top 30 players but it depends on calculation/priority of stats I guess and some pieces of play will always be worth more than the stats suggest I think) plus Bebeto and Brolin with that ratio.
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    This is how Dunga looked in the final
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    I struggle with the excel sheets but anyway, it is a surprise that Hassler ranks so high while he did not feature in all star team selections and had not high journalist ratings either in the 1994WC. Usually every German player who performs a bit well receives immediately an enormous hype but that wasn't the case with Hassler.
    I also vividly remember the game between Belgium and Germany (which is controversial until this day; referee, extra rest days, opponent not needing to travel while the Belgians were for hours stuck) and in that game Klinsmann and Voller took the spotlights, they caused the most danger.

    Bebeto, Brolin, Hagi (others with good chances created) were of course all seen as main stars of that tournament.
  8. babaorum

    babaorum Member

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    I'm surprised with Giresse's number, as he was really in bad shape in WC1986.

    Zidane did actually pretty well in 1998, contrary to the popular belief that he only delivered in the final.
    laudrup_10 repped this.
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Ronald de Boer looks good for 1998WC (after Zidane most chances created, 2 goals and 2 assists etcetera) which is also a bit strange because he was relegated to the side of midfield instead of at the center of it (which was together with CF position his favorite position). Hiddink had more faith in others.
    De Boer was a very stylish player though :thumbsup: Very nice technique and a nice upright stance.



    1998 was after 1974 the biggest chance to win the World Cup.
    laudrup_10 repped this.
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    See now that Bergkamp1998 isn't included in the file. Anyway, he had 3 assists indeed and 3 goals. He created 11 chances which means a chance every 49 minutes. Chance per match was 1.57.

    Not very good but he had at least a few important goals and assists at the right time and as said he was heavily injured which impeded his movements (he had a teared muscle in his leg; not just a 'scar' or minor scratch but it was actually teared so no light injury).

    You might say in a positive light that he was efficient and waited for his moments.

    At the European Championships (since 1980) he is together with Zidane and Deco among the best chance creators of all-time according to OPTA btw (also in ratio). Deco edges him out slightly.

    Still wonder why UEFA and FIFA have different stats.
    laudrup_10 repped this.
  11. babaorum

    babaorum Member

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    OPTA also did it for Euro Championships ? Do you know where I can find them ?
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    They mentioned it on twitter and I read it on the newspaper here. They released actually a whole bunch of Zidane stats at his birthday.

    Example:

    734 - Xavi has made more successful passes in Euro Finals history, overtaking Zinedine Zidane (707) tonight. Trivia.

    1 – Zinedine Zidane only made one assist for Thierry Henry with the French national team in 59 appearances together. Blend.


    I also know that he had the most (absolute) amount of successful dribbles at euro2000 (more than Figo and Overmars who were slightly behind).
  13. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Like who?
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Well, we will not agree on this, I know your preferences and I have mine but just as there is a "Brazilian hype machine" (your words), the same is true for Argentina, Germany and Spain recently. Less so for England and Italy (let alone the smaller nations). Even if they perform bad, irrespective of whether it was with or without a good end result, the players receive praise; more than players of other teams who showed more skill and contributed more. Defenders belong suddenly among the best performers even when the luck was on their side (in this respect Italy does have a certain kind of hype machine btw, with regards to their defenders).
    I just watched the extended Belgium-Germany highlights to bring back memories.
    Show Spoiler




    It was how I remembered: Voller and Klinsmann were seen as the most dangerous men. Hassler was actually relatively quiet. ARD commentator and KH Rummenigge also mention on tape how certain phases of this game were the best their team has shown until that phase of the tournament and they did not mean it positive.
    In the post-match interview in the second video there are complaints about the schedule (how that disadvantaged the Belgians) and that this awful Swiss referee was funnily the number one candidate/favorite for leading the final.


    I can call a lot of names which you maybe debate but the same Hassler is a very good example. At euro92 he was despite strong performances of others like Brian Laudrup (who won the main trophy and was almost their only creative outlet in a dull team) and Brolin voted as player of the tournament with a land-slide and large majority. He had two goals and one assist but all made from a set-piece (both goals directly scored with free-kick, assist was a corner-kick). Also compare with Van Basten at euro88.
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/all-star-teams-of-1986-world-cup.1979342/#post-26891095
    [I would give likely three stars to him, don't get me wrong]

    You will maybe say that this case is the exception rather than the rule and I can accept that.
  15. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Yes. I don't see how any German players are overrated in a historical context. (maybe some of the '54 heros)
    How often have you heard Haller & Held being mentioned? On the other hand you have at least 15 Brazilians from the 60s who weren't even capped 10 times that are supposedly amazing forgotten alltime greats. :D
    And their most prominent names like Beckenbauer, Müller and Matthäus aren't exactly the first ones that get listed when talking about best World Cup performances either.
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Maybe because Beckenbauer was good in three but not exceptional in a single one of them? See your own database and compare with Cruijff, Maradona (Eusebio?) who are all-time leaders in some categories or close (top five or top ten) in many of them. In some other categories they rank among the best within their position, the 'forwards' (duels won; interceptions - understandably not close to the all-time leaders but close to the 'positional leader'). Beckenbauer is also close in some but not quite to the same degree. Eusebio also did not face Switzerland or other cannon fodder (only North Korea perhaps, where he saved the ass of his team mates).

    I agree that Müller is often underrated. Your stats prove that again. He scored three goals of his 10 in 1970 in a meaningless game (which is always mentioned against Fontaine but not in case of Muller) but he is exceptional in many categories (among the best forwards in passes category; for example). Hence, I have him in top 10 all time. You know that.

    Matthaus was good but was also an 'ugly' player to watch. Nedved, somewhat a similar player, has already more style for example.
    He was also not by a mile better at 1990WC as Donadoni, Scifo and Giannini in particular (and some others). I'd say he was the best midfielder of WC90 but not way better as Gascoigne and some others.
    The way they achieved their glory was also not great and with distinction (but not many have though).

    On the other hand, Baggio94 is sometimes placed in top five all-time so there are indeed a few who are more overrated as Matthaus90. That is correct. In comparison with a few names like Stoichkov94 he is underrated. I can agree with that.
    But on the other hand it was no Kempes78 or Rossi82.
  17. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Yes, that might be true but overall Beckenbauer has 3 noteworthy WC and he's the only post-66 player I can think of who did this.
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    I can think of defenders who were good in two: Scirea, Krol, Thuram, Moore, Passarella, Maldini. And that are the 'fancied' names. Some of them did not benefit of falling in between two good generations. You are right in that respect: Germany always deliver results irrespective of the way it is achieved. The same cannot be said about Italy or let alone France or Holland (Holland will never achieve anything again btw but that as sidenote). Maybe with a bit more luck and better qualification group Krol, who was still among the best, had played well at WC82.
    Compare Beckenbauer his interception stat (which says something about reading ability) with the interception stats of other legendary defenders.

    Forwards who perform great at three WCs is unreasonable to expect; in particular in the past they suffered way more stress and encountered more hazards and threats. Plus: defenders can generally perform equally well until their early to mid 30s.

    Regarding Haller and Held: I don't think there are many of a similar caliber who are more fondly remembered. We talk about performances of the level of Bertoni, Conti at best. Not in the same league as Littbarski or Stoichkov. Let alone Matthaus or Ronaldo.
    Funny detail: in 1966 kicker ranked 9 German players as World Class which was a record. We know now how with which wonder panacea that was achieved ;) . Which performers of a similar level are more fondly remembered and more frequently mentioned?

    How do you rank Matthaus? In comparison with who is he generally underrated you would say? I already gave you the names Baggio and Stoichkov.
    [As said: I think the way it was done and his 'style' contributes to it]

    Anyhow, regarding the game mentioned above, put this in a translation machine:
    http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/5009/Arch...4/07/04/Belgen-furieus-op-Rothlisberger.dhtml
  19. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Wait have you looked at Haller's stats?
    How is he not in the league of Littbarski and Stoichkov when his stats are like twice as good.
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Lets compare Littbarski with Haller because both played as winger in their outstanding WC (Haller not in all games).

    Littbarski has an awesome pass accuracy, esp. for his time. Haller not.

    Littbarski had two goals and 5 assists. Haller 6 (1PK) and 2.

    Littbarski had more successful crosses percentage, a a slightly better chances created (chance per 34.3 minute vs chance per 30.9 minutes in a more 'negative' team), higher shooting accuracy (and it was not the case that general SA improved between 1966 and 1982). Littbarski won more fouls and has a better tackle win %.

    Haller won more duels though, that is a relevant stat where he stands out.

    It would be nice as well if you answer the questions above regarding Matthaus etcetera.
  21. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Have you noticed the column that says 'games played'?
    Helmut Haller has 1 Goal per Game even if you exclude his penalty, that's the relevant stat where he stands out.

    Wow! That's straight up ridiculous.
    Haller scored 5 goals on 15 shots, compared to 2 goals on 12 shots and you feel the need to point out how Littbarski was able to put 7/12 on target and mention his superior shooting accuracy? :D
    You just showed me how to missuse stats. Textbook example.

    And Haller's goalscoring is a bare sidenote compared to Littbarski's 3 more successful tackles too.
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    I look at minutes, not games played.

    20 fouls suffered in 587 minutes is better as 13 in 480 minutes. For example.

    On other hand: competition was watered down in 1982 which has effect on chances created (even in a 'negative' team) but stats like shooting accuracy are somewhat unrelated to this.

    What is ridiculous about that? SA did not improve markedly in 80s compared with 60s.

    On the other hand 1966WC was one of the biggest goalscoring fests in history like you have said before in defense of Ronaldo. Rightly so.
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    I may be being slow but I'm still unsure exactly what duals comprise. Is it just one player trying to dribble past another? Is it 50/50 balls too? Is there overlap with the tackles stat? Does it include races to the ball in open space? Sorry if any of those questions have obvious answers.

    My knowledge of Haller is limited and what I've seen of him is basically the 1966 Final and not much else, but I think Littbarski would be the better dribbler ability wise so I'd expect if the dribbling stats were available then they ought to favour him (not that they necessarily would on a percentage basis which doesn't differenciate between each dribble I suppose). They should be able to provide dribbling stats shouldn't they if they have watched every action?
  24. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Then try to sort by 'Minutes per goal' and see how Haller ends up 10th alltime, playing as a Winger.
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Why is this board all about making cheap points and denigrate others?

    I actually expressed my view in the other thread about this:
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/the-best-players-of-euro-80.1978543/page-3#post-26914344

    It is safe to assume that players do not want to commit easy turnovers. So if they shoot, the ball should land between the posts. That is the primary goal; whether you are a defender or an attacker, whether you shoot from 10 meters or from 30 meters. You want to shoot between the posts.

    What is the all-time list in terms of 'goals / total shots'?

    Actually, I'm receptive to other views. If you like to make a point that Matthaus90 or Beckenbauer66 are underrated compared to other fancied names in history, go ahead. I already signaled that I find some overrated compared with Matthaus but like to hear your view.

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