You are the ref

Discussion in 'Referee' started by bothways, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. bothways

    bothways Member

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  2. Gary V

    Gary V Member

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    Hackett got all 3 right for a change. ;)
  3. MrRC

    MrRC Red Card

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    I don't agree with the ruling for #2.
    Why isn't the ball out of play at the time of the foul by the kicker and since that occurs prior to the ball crossing the line, then no goal was scored.
    I would issue a red card to the attacker, count the kick as unsuccessful, and not award a retake.
  4. Yale

    Yale Member

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    Well, it's a bit of a weird situation. Theoretically, KFTPM are governed by the same laws as a regular PK. That's not entirely true, though, because looking at Law 14, there's an entire section that has to do with “after the penalty kick has been taken”, which presumes the ball is in play (because the restarts in that section are listed as an IFK or a DFK).

    However, this section doesn't govern, because KFTPM aren't considered part of the game, so the ball is never really put into play. Accordingly, the relevant part of Law 14 is the first part of the infringements section: “If the referee gives the signal for a penalty kick to be taken and, before the ball is in play, one of the following occurs”. That section states that if the player taking the kick infringes the laws of the game and the ball enters the goal, the kick is retaken.

    Of course, if the ball hadn't entered the goal, the restart would technically be an IFK, which is obviously nonsensical. The likely result if this were to happen (i.e., the kicker fouls the keeper but the ball doesn't then go into the net) would be that space-time would fold onto itself due to the paradox, turning the entire pitch (as well as the players, officials, and spectators) into a black hole that would eventually swallow up the entire planet. I really hope FIFA does something to address this concern the next time they revise the LOTG.


  5. MrRC

    MrRC Red Card

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    First, I'm both a USSF referee instructor and assessor, so I can tell you with 100% certainty that unless stated otherwise, all of the LOTG apply during KFTM and the ball definitely is in play once it is kicked and moves. You are correct that KFTM is not considered to be part of the match per FIFA. It is simply a tie-breaking procedure following the match. However, that doesn't mean that basic definitions such as when the ball is in play don't apply because if they didn't then no one would be able to score!

    Secondly, this infringement by the kicker clearly takes place AFTER the ball has been kicked, not before, so what you have quoted from Law 14 would not apply.
  6. Yale

    Yale Member

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    The precise wording, according to FIFA, is: “Unless otherwise stated, the relevant Laws of the Game and International F.A. Board Decisions apply when kicks from the penalty mark are being taken” [emphasis added]. Clearly, some parts of the LOTG are then irrelevant, and your statement that all of the LOTG applies is incorrect. And what I'm saying here is that the parts of Law 14 dealing with the ball being in play following a penalty kick are irrelevant in this situation, and thus do not apply. Could you award a free kick for violating those parts of the law during KFTPM? Nope. You couldn't even restart with a dropped ball. So what possible relevance do they have?

    So can the players then leave the center circle? Would a deflected ball that goes over the goalpost result in a corner kick? Could the kicker then follow up and attempt to score off a ball that's deflected by the keeper? By what meaningful metric is the ball “in play”? It is simply traveling from the kicker towards the goal as part of the specified process for resolving tie games.

    Law 9 explicitly says the ball is out of play when “play has been stopped by the referee”. I think blowing the whistle to end the game is a pretty solid indicator that play has been stopped. Again, do you see any players running around the field during KFTPM? It's not part of the actual game, so the ball is never really “in play”. Any parts of the LOTG referring to the ball being “in play” should be deemed irrelevant during a shootout. As a matter of fact, Law 10 doesn't even require the ball to be “in play” for a goal to be scored. (During normal play, duh, yes, of course the ball has to be in play for a goal to count—but KFTPM isn't part of normal play!)

    Well, the second part clearly doesn't apply, because it provides no sanction that's applicable (except for the part about the ball being touched by an outside agent as it moves forward). So the question would seem to be whether the first part is relevant. It states that it applies when the referee has given the signal for the kick to be taken, but before the ball is in play. Since the game has been stopped by the referee, and the ball is thus never really “in play”, it would seem that this section would govern for the duration of the kick in this instance.
    QuietCoach repped this.
  7. Errol V

    Errol V Member+

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    In the second scenario, I think what I'm doing here is that if the ball would not have entered the goal on its own I am sending off the kicker, and we are on to the next kick. If the ball would have entered the goal unless the keeper stopped it, I am sending off the kicker and we are retaking the kick with a teammate who had not yet kicked in the current round.
  8. MrRC

    MrRC Red Card

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    Unfortunately, by your logic there is nothing wrong with the following kick during a KFTM process.
    The kicker kicks the ball which proceeds over the goal line in the air after passing over the crossbar, but a strong wind blows it back and the ball strikes the GK in the back and then enters the goal.
    Sadly, since the ball was never "in play" to you, it could never become "out of play" and thus you can't tell if a goal was scored or not in this case.
  9. JimEWrld

    JimEWrld Member

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    Sure you can. In KFTM, it is ITOOTR when the kick has been "completed". Typically it is very simple, the ball either enters the net or does not. In your nearly impossible scenario, I would be calling the play dead the second it passes over the bar.
  10. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    I agree -- IMO, Hackett's answer on #2 is hopelessly indefensible,utterly lacking in common sense,and fully untethered from both the LOTG and the SOTG.

    Law 14 tells us that the referee decides when a penalty kick has been completed. If this event happened during the course of play, the foul would unambigously end the PK, and we'd have a DFK coming out. And there is no basis for remotely suggeting any other outcome.

    Nothing different should happen in KFTPM: the "foul" should tell the referee that the PK was over at them moment of the misbehavior.

    As others have noted, the language Hackett quotes to justify his anser ignores the key language of "before the ball is in play." We don't have to jump through linguistic hoops on this one about whether a ball is "in play" in KFTPM, we just have to recognize that the guidance about the same as the game is to give us the same result we would have durng the game. The same result is no goal and no re-take.

    (For that reason, I disagree with Errol V's perspective of making a judgment of whether the ball would have gone in anway. During the game, that would be irrelevant: DFK coming out regardless of what would have happened to the ball, therefore no goal. The result should be exactly the same in KFTPM: no goal if you do something that stupid and offensive to the spirtit of the game.)
    jayhonk and iron81 repped this.
  11. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member

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    I am not a fan of answer number 3, either. If the referee is being gamed, I hate to think he has to play along. How about he pointedly ignores the antics of 10 and 11 and tells one of them to step up and kick. If they both refuse to kick, start showing Yellow cards for Delay of Restart; and before you show the 4th YC, announce that the game will be abandoned if you have to show the last one.
  12. campbed

    campbed Member

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    Decision #2 - Disagree. Send off (SFP), no goal, no retake, next kicker please.

    My different take is this: all of the Law 14 retake scenario's and associated matrix to figure out the restart (if kicker violates, if kicker teammate violates, if goalie violates, if other defender violates, if all violate) only come into play BEFORE the kick is taken.

    I think this is where Mr. Hackett goes wrong.

    My take, is that we have no goal and no retake. Because Law 14 punishes violations of the kicker AFTER the ball is in play (double touch, handling) with either a IFK or DFK coming out. I.e. no retake.

    So in my mind the kick ends with the DFK foul of the kicker. (Don't think I can defend this bit explicitly)

    Send off (SFP), no goal, no retake (violation after ball in play), next kicker please.
  13. bothways

    bothways Member

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    Jun 27, 2009
    this may be a question for jim allen:)
    so MrRC- where do you instruct and assess- what state are you in?
  14. Yale

    Yale Member

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    If you don't allow the kick to be retaken, you invite a big problem that leads to a perverse outcome. Let's reverse the situation: The kicker takes the kick, and then the keeper jumps up, grabs the crossbar, and hangs from it (or commits some other act of unsporting behavior). The ball bounces off the keeper and is deflected.

    Now, according to the LOTG, this should be punishable by an IFK for the shooters team. This is clearly impossible during KFTPM. There's no provision in Law 14 for retaking the kick in this instance if it were a normal penalty kick. So, if you believe Law 14 should be followed exactly the same way in KFTPM as during the game, you'd have to conclude that the kick was completed unsuccessfully and move on. Essentially, you're rewarding the keeper for unsporting behavior, by not providing any recourse to the kicking team.

    The only equitable thing to do would be to follow the guidelines in Law 14 for before the ball is in play, which would indicate a retake. And once you've opened that door, I don't see how you can pick and choose when to allow that part to govern and when not to during KFTPM.
  15. sm. town ref

    sm. town ref Member

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    Already taken care of in LOTG.
    Law14-
    the goalkeeper infringes the Laws of the Game:
    • the referee allows the kick to be taken
    • if the ball enters the goal, a goal is awarded
    • if the ball does not enter the goal, the kick is retaken
    In the opinion of this referee, the moment the attacker "fouls" the keeper, the kick is over. Doesn't matter if the keeper is making the save or not. So, if just a PK, DK coming out...if KFTM, next kicker please.

    Don't worry, I will follow my own advice and ask before I put this into practice, but it makes sense to me.

    Edit: the quote from from the part of BEFORE THE KICK IS TAKEN.... so I will add this to my thinking.... hanging from crossbar, play advantage if the ball goes in.
  16. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    Well, if the keeper is actually quick enough to -- after the ball is kicked -- leap up, grab the crossbar and kick the ball away before the ball can travel 12 yards . . . .

    But I don't see a need to travel down a parade of horribles on this: in my opinion the PK ended the moment the attacker fouled the keeper. Simple. No retake. (The fould by an attacker, while exceptionally unlikely, it is concieveable it could happen.)

    And if the keeper does some god-awful act (of which we have yet to really find a plausible example of something that could actually happen after the ball was kicked that would actually prevent a goal), I'm pretty sure he left the line early to do it . . . ;)

    Imagining "what-ifs" can sometimes be helpful. But sometimes piling them on top of one another in an effort to find consistency creates a drift from common sense.

    "A foolish consitency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
  17. Yale

    Yale Member

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    Nov 26, 2012
    Sure, play advantage if the ball goes in. But what if it doesn't? There's no provision for retaking a normal penalty kick in that instance, so does that mean that a dirty play by the keeper after the ball moves can decide the game?

    This “in play/out of play” distinction here is more than just semantical. I think there's a good reason why the part of Law 14 that deals with before the ball is put into play should govern for the entire kick during KFTPM. During a normal PK, the game has started up again as soon as the shot is taken. Players may enter the penalty area to chase after a rebound, a missed shot could result in a GK/CK, if the keeper catches the ball he just releases it into play, and so on. So really, that whole part of Law 14 is just a way of “transitioning” the penalty kick back into regular play: A second touch is an IFK (because it's a player-initiated restart), the exception being handling which is always a DFK; any outside interference with the ball following a PK results in a retake, unless the kick has been clearly missed at which point it's a dropped ball as usual.

    You will find very similar language in Laws 15-17, which is there to provide guidance about how to transition from the various restarts back into play. But we're not transitioning back into play during KFTPM. That whole section should thus be disregarded as irrelevant. So when Law 14 says “before the ball is in play”, I take that to mean “before the game is back to normal play”. Since the game doesn't go back to normal play regardless of the outcome, I see no reason why the first section shouldn't apply for the duration of the kick.

    Actually, I think the consistent thing to do would be to end the kick as you said. The correct thing, however, is to retake the kick following any foul by the attacker where the ball goes in.
  18. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    As I've said before: IMO, that is consistent with neither the LOTG nor the SOTG.

    It is, IMHO, fundamentally insane to say that a kicker can engage in grotesquely unpsorting behavior in order to get a second bite in KFTM (which would have been -- quite appropriately -- a DFK coming out during the game). Until they amend the I&G to adopt this (in my view preposterous) position, it ain't gonna happen when I have a whistle in my hand. Anyone who wants to argue to a protest board that they should get a replay is welcome to make the argument.
  19. Yale

    Yale Member

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    The kicker is not getting a second bite, any more than if the he had infringed the laws prior to the kick being taken. If the ball hadn't gone in, it wouldn't have been a retake regardless. If the infringement had happened prior to the kick being taken, you're supposed to let the kick proceed, but it's a retake only if the goal is scored. I don't see how you can say that it's reasonable to allow a retake if the infringement happens before the kick, but if it happens just after the kick it's totally insane and not in keeping with the spirit of the game.
  20. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    Apples and oranges. I have nothing further to add to what I've already explained.
  21. Yale

    Yale Member

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    I'm still confused as to why you think retaking the kick when the ball has gone in (and only when it has gone in) provides any advantage to the kicker. But another, more important thing just occurred to me: KFTPM is not considered part of the game, but a foul can only be called during the game, against players who are actually in the game. If you end the kick because of a foul, you're misapplying the law, because there's no such thing as a foul during KFTPM. This is explicitly stated here: USSF KFTPM Checklist.

    Actually, that document states explicitly that any violation of Law 14 by the kicker that causes a goal to be scored requires a retake. So even if the kicker were to handle the ball after kicking it, causing it to go into the net, you would have to retake it. Assuming USSF is considered authoritative on this matter, shouldn't the same thing apply to violations of any of the LOTG?
  22. bothways

    bothways Member

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    o A goal is scored by a kick from the mark only if it meets the requirements of Law 10
    o If the kicker violates Law 14 and a goal is scored or if the goalkeeper violates Law 14 and a goal is not scored, the kick must be retaken
    Looking at yales link this is correct we are not rewarding the kicking team they had a guy sent off and the goal is not allowed so having the kick retaken is the right course of action and mr RCA you never said ur state I am in Illinois and I think it would good to have a nicer tone I would hope your demeanor in the classroom would not be as caustic on here
  23. Yale

    Yale Member

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    This exact situation (kicker shoots, commits an act of misconduct, scores) was posed to Ask A Soccer Referee. The answer is that the kick is retaken.
  24. campbed

    campbed Member

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    This is only opinion of JA (read not USSF), and does not carry any more weight than opinions posted here or any other discussion board.
  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    Nope, not exactly the same. It is not clear from the description ("The referee signals for Team A’s kick to be taken. the kicker goes up for the kick, commits an act of unsporting behavior, and scores") whether the USB happened before or after the ball was kicked. (And it's hard to imagine what USB would have happened in the fraction of a second between the kick and it crossing the goal line.)

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